Russia attacks Ukraine as defiant Putin warns US, NATO
apnews.comMOSCOW (AP) — Russian troops launched their anticipated attack on Ukraine on Thursday, as President Vladimir Putin cast aside international condemnation and sanctions, warning other countries that any attempt to interfere would lead to “consequences you have never seen.”
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I still think that the underlying problem is purely a collapsing economic system. This has always been the case in the capitalist system when, due to some crisis, the speculative bubble burst, always in the quest for infinite growth. This situation always ended with a war, for which any pretext was used, to make a reset, especially by imperialist countries whose largest investments are in the military and weapons field. Destroyed countries with a reduced population are always a huge deal with reconstruction, to start this cycle of infinite growth again. It’s that simple. All of the current neo-liberal governments should be hanged by the balls to do justice to the people who, as always, pay for these excesses with misery and suffering.
The fact that Ukraine was falling apart all on its own was why I didn’t see the logic in Russia actually invading. They could’ve just sat there and waited for more regions to separate.
Yes, but this don’t help the economy. The problem in Ukraine has existed for more than 8 years with the oppression of the pro-Russian population, which has already cost more than 10,000 deaths.
But this has not interested anyone. But now, with an economy on the ground, both in Russia and in the US, now suddenly Ukraine is moving into the center of interest, the US doing business selling weapons to Ukraine, with the promise of making them members of NATO and Russia taking the relief, providing support to the pro-Russian side.
Putin claiming that the US wants to extend its influence to its borders while Biden says that Russia wants to annex Ukraine. To take a simile, what would the US say, when Russia proposes to arm Cuba by including them in the Soviet defense? Ah, okay, we already had this.
Meanwhile, the arms industry of both blocs earning a nose of gold and flourishing the economies of both, and the EU between the sword and the wall, as members of the NATO defending interests of EEUU but not the own.
As I said, to hang them by the balls, both.
Perhaps Putin knows something the rest of us don’t.
Like, I dunno… that more regions didn’t want to separate, and any pretense to the contrary was purely through his own meddling?
Or perhaps he knows that most regions will either support or not resist Russia?
That’s perhaps true. But if it is, then you’re right back to being confused as to why he bothered to invade, seeing as he could’ve just sat there and waited for them to separate.
There’s that point in time where the flat-earthers run their properly designed experiment, say to themselves “Gee, that’s funny, it’s almost like the Earth is round”… and 3 seconds later “Naaah! That’s crazy, must be something wrong with our setup”.
You’re experiencing that moment in time, that slight little split second.
I don’t even know why. I get that you’re a Marxist, and if this were 1970-something and we were talking about the USSR, it’d be one thing. The loyalty would make sense. But Putin’s not even close to that. He’s working from a playbook written by that neo-fascist Dugin. It’s pretty fucking bizarre.
You don’t have to accept that the USA and Europe are good guys (hell, even I don’t believe that myself). Just know that some fights are between two or more sets of comparably bad guys.
Not really sure what’s there to be confused about. If Russia calculated that they would get popular support they might’ve decided that there would be little repercussions.
The west already said that NATO wouldn’t engage Russia militarily, and said exactly what sanctions would be placed on Russia. So, Russia knows exactly what the blow back would be. Since the west decided to start sanctions after Russia recognized Donbas republics, there wouldn’t be any tougher response going forward.
Furthermore, there could be a bigger calculation to drag the west into a new cold war that Russia believes it would have an advantage in right now. Western economies are in a dire state after the pandemic, and being dragged into an arms race with Russia and China will certainly not help things. Energy prices in Europe are skyrocketing already, and US will likely double down on more military spending. All of that will directly lead to decline in material conditions in the west. And that will further fuel civil unrest that’s already happening.
You also seem to be under a delusion that I’m supporting Putin here. I’m simply explaining to you what the rationale is. I don’t support the capitalist government in Russia in any way. I think that recognition of Donbas republics was justified given that Ukraine failed to implement Minsk agreements, but I don’t think Russia is in the right invading Ukraine.
That said, the west is largely responsible for this situation. There was every opportunity to work with Russia constructively after USSR collapsed and to treat Russia as an equal partner in a win-win relationship. Instead, the west chose to run a campaign of aggression and to keep expanding NATO military alliance. That’s how we got to where we are today.
And here I was being told that Russia was just dropping by a couple of separatist regions by invitation and wasn’t going to invade. I’m getting ready for those goalposts to move like lightning. Oh no, that’s not imperialist bullying, merely a light shelling.
They will likely point to the false-flag ops that occurred as some vague justification or to set up the usual ambiguity.
Nothing says “protecting civilians” like a little shelling
There has been no shelling of civilian targets.
On what basis do you make that claim?
Just a little different way than how you support the thin air claim of citizen bombing. It is called citation of facts.
You didn’t cite anything
On the basis of “Putin can do no wrong and his farts taste like cotton candy” I presume
Unnecessary.
Personally, I didn’t see what angle there would be for Russia to actually invade Ukraine. Recognizing Donetsk and Luhansk was justified, but going further than that takes away any legitimacy from Russian position.
It seems like recognizing the Donbass region as separate republics was always going to be a stepping stone to attacking the rest of Ukraine.
Totally didn’t see that coming
I know you are being sarcastic, but there were a handful of people across Lemmy insisting there was no invasion coming.
They said that the military buildup didn’t happen, that it was just the latest in a history of false alarms, that it was just the west warmongering, etc. and basically spent the last week calling people crazy for suspecting that any attack was on the table.
Oops, just wrong about an impending war where the evidence was screamingly obvious. No biggie.
I’m still shocked. What happened was stupid.
Russia could gained control of the remaining ethnically russian regions, of important mining areas and pipeline routes. And stopped. It was the obvious winning strategy.
Then it could wait a couple of years and repeat, steadily increasing its power in the region.
Like fools, they they give in to international pressure/expectations and rolled on into west ukraine. There’s no strategic sense in it.
I’m sure half of lemmygrad thinks NATO blew up Kyiv
It’s unfortunate that literally everyone you were arguing with apparently was able to see the trajectory of events more clearly than you.
Hopefully some self-reflection will be in order and you can see if the same errors of judgment are compromising your ability to evaluate subsequent events in Ukraine and make excuses, and if your counterparts making the same arguments as you are similarly blind.
Nina Khrushcheva, a professor at the New School, spoke to NPR this morning. Like you, she was dismissing talk of an impending invasion as Western-driven hysteria. She confessed on the air that this was a major embarrassment for her, which I found to be a nice moment of accountability. Surely you can follow her example.
I base my assessment on the available facts. At the time I did not see the benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine since they were getting what they wanted by being measured. Clearly events worked out differently, and we’re in a new situation now. I’m not sure what self-reflection you’re suggesting I should be doing here. Are you suggesting that I shouldn’t evaluate events based on the available facts?
Totally obtuse answer. I’m saying that your assessment of what counted as “the facts” and your interpretation of them was completely wrong, and possibly driven by biases that you may want to examine further, and I gave you the example of another person who, in a similar case took ownership of their mistake.
If you think a JV debate team game where you try and twist my words into “oh, so you didn’t want me to look at ThE fAcTs?!”, that’s just a signal in favor of the conclusion that you have been and are continuing to be completely disingenuous. These are just not adult answers.
What specifically are you claiming was completely wrong in my assessment?
We’ll get to that, if you want an hour long tedious point by point debate where you constantly argue definitions and split differences.
But first, what I’m telling you now is that “oh, so you didn’t want me to look at the facts” is a totally obtuse and disingenuous paraphrase and a signal that nobody on Lemmy should bother trying to reason with you, because you aren’t willing to try.
Somehow the rest of the world, including everyone you were arguing with, were able to see it from the same set of “tHe FaCtS” and see the obvious and you weren’t, and you don’t want to do any self-reflection unless lead by the nose through god knows how many tedious paragraphs of details, fighting every step of the way. More responsible people, such as Nina Kruscheva are able to do that on their own.
What I’m telling you is that Russia was getting what they wanted without the need to invade. The facts are that western powers were engaged in active diplomacy with Russia, and that Ukrainian economy was crashing. Simply recognizing Donbas republics and waiting would’ve worked in Russia’s favor in the long term. Please explain to me what specifically you claim to be at odds with the facts in that assessment.
Actually invading Ukraine will clearly destroy any chance for diplomacy between Russia and Europe and help galvanize NATO. I personally don’t see how this is to Russia’s benefit, but again perhaps you can explain to me why I was deluded to think that.
Despite all your bloviating here, you haven’t actually said a single thing of substance. You just keep repeating how “ThE ReSt Of tHe WoRLd” came to a different conclusion, without explaining the basis for it.
Replying to me by saying “oh so you didn’t want me to look at the facts” is a completely disingenuous and juvenile equivocation over ordinary terminology.
It’s a signal that you are not even trying to engage in good faith. If people on Lemmy saw nothing other than this chain of comments it would be sufficient reason to never engage with you.
I replied to you saying that based on the available facts it looked like the repercussions for Russia invading Ukraine would be undesirable. Meanwhile, working diplomatically with the west would produce the results that Russia wanted. Obviously I’m not omniscient, and I was clearly wrong in my assessment. However, I once again ask you to explain why you’re insisting that my assessment was wrong based on what was known at the time.
Seems to me that you’re the one being extremely disingenuous here given that you refuse to address the actual points I made.
all of the bullshit “justifications” you’ve been fed are lies
Please be specific what you’re claiming to be lies. What I said was that it looked like the repercussions for Russia invading Ukraine would be undesirable. Meanwhile, working diplomatically with the west would produce the results that Russia wanted. I also noted that Ukraine was carrying out attacked against ethnic Russian population in Ukraine, and even provided sources including actual research to support that. What specifically are you claiming I lied about?
You shared a links with me earlier about how water and electricity supplies were being disrupted. that’s probably true, but its likely a direct result of the russian invasion, and the premise that invading more will solve the problem is an obvious lie.
How can it possibly be a result of the Russian invasion when these things have been happening for the past 8 years. Why do you need the feel to lie openly?
Because the Russians invaded 8 years ago…
I’m not the one who’s lying…
If Russians invaded 8 years ago, then what’s happening today?
more invasion
LIE
I literally provided references for this, what are you claiming is the lie here?
The reference is the lie.
Putin is the liar…
The reference is not from a Russian source. You sound deranged to be honest.
I don’t know what reference your talking abut, but link it again, and I’ll show you that the Kremlin is the only primary source cited.
please show me where Kremlin is cited https://lemmy.ml/post/180102/comment/123746
Unless you’re part of the Russian state propaganda network, that’s not what I said… or it was a really great self-report.
I said you’ve been lied to.
What specifically are you claiming I’ve been lied to about. I provided my rationale above, please address what I actually said.
There was never any legitimacy
Given what NATO and Ukraine have been up to, there absolutely was
https://twitter.com/ASBMilitary/status/1496876089838342156
https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/unicef-nearly-2-dozen-attacks-on-water-supply-systems-in-donbas-recorded-since-years-start.html
https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-02-22/no-power-no-water-civilians-in-donbas-region-feel-effects-of-escalating-ukraine-russia-crisis.html
https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356691143_The_Maidan_Massacre_in_Ukraine_Revelations_from_Trials_and_Investigation
Here’s a direct quote from page 54 of your final piece of evidence:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356691143_The_Maidan_Massacre_in_Ukraine_Revelations_from_Trials_and_Investigation
Quick question, why didn’t you copy the entire quote?
I miss-read that =\
You just combed the document for a quote that supported your biases without actually reading it.
how about you find the sentence that says Ukraine committed genocide…
Where did I make that claim?
right here: https://lemmy.ml/post/180102/comment/123783
That’s correct, Ukrainian fascists were targeting ethnically Russian people in Ukraine.
now quote the evidence
I already linked it three times in this thread. Read again the document that you chose to creatively quote.
you linked a shitload of stuff to read, I’m asking for you to pull from that wealth of evidence, a single quote to suggest Ukraine committed ethnic cleansing.
No I read some of a 74 page document and my brain stopped working around page 54 =/
Yeah ok, you just oopsie daisy cut off the paragraph in a middle to make it look like it says the opposite of what it’s actually saying. Gotcha.
There is still no invasion into Ukraine. Fake news.
Literally within 3 hours of your comment.
https://twitter.com/ThomasVLinge/status/1496753930625290240
A lot of these videos have been fact checked as false and out of context
I mean, even twitter had this thing to debunk false claims
https://twitter.com/i/events/1496815373936574469
Not saying that Russians aren’t in Ukraine right now, they could very well be, but I object strongly to people jumping to conclusions about a full scale invasion, when it looks like the real narrative is Russia has done a one off attack for political leverage.
You are from lemmygrad, so I assume you trust China at least somewhat. This was China’s stance.
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-calls-restraint-ukraine-rejects-term-invasion-2022-02-24/
I wanted to post it, but lemmy wouldn’t do it for some reason
Let’s flip this. If the US was bombing Moscow’s airport and rolling tanks across the border, would you be calling for not being too hasty about calling it an invasion?
If I was living in a Russia dominated media and social media environment, and people were making false claims about the scale of USA’s actions for the purpose of warmongering, I absolutely would want people to be cautious
Russia has come out and said they did both of these things. It’s not under dispute.
Edit: Or there is so much reporting from a variety of sources that it is not open to dispute. And no, the Russian media is not comparable to the Western media. Russian media is just way more under the thumb of the government.
I variety of sources such as Ukrainian officials, your cousin on twitter, some random farmer in Kharkov. Many of the more extreme claims are being fact checked now.
The standard role call of disinformation, distortion, and denial. Weren’t you denying there were Russian troops on the border, just a few days ago?
I don’t remember denying there were Russian troops on the border. You might be confused
You’ve lost all credibility.
There was no full-scale invasion two days ago. I stand by what I said.
Just a half-scale invasion then? Is that like being half pregnant? It’s kind of either/or.
No it’s not. There’s not just peace and war. There’s in between. For example, in Syria, the US has never been in all at war with the Syrian government. They’ve used hybrid warfare and other methods. There was that one time as well where Trump ordered a tomahawk to destroy a Syrian air field. Still no all out war. And also when Trump ordered the assassination of Soleimani without engaging in warfare with Iran. Countries can engage in military attacks without invading or waging war.
You started by claiming this isn’t a “full scale invasion”, which if the goal is to “demilitarize” Ukraine will require that. Bolstering break-away provinces doesn’t require attacks on the capital. Russia has been using hybrid warfare in Ukraine since Crimea, but now this does begin to look like war and not some one-shot retaliatory strike.
Now it does, I agree. According to the Kremlin, the military operation was paused as it looked like Zelensky was willing to negotiate neutrality. Now that has fallen through, they have resumed the operation today, so it seems like tonight we will see a big escalation in military action now.
Demilitarization is just the reduction of armed forces. So yes you can demilitarize a country without a full scale invasion.
Tonight, Ukrainian military invaded Luhansk, despite Russian recognition of LPR as independent
Source
Despite knowing Russia would defend what they recognize as a sovereign country, they poked the bear.
Russia orchestrated a surgical strike to disable Ukraine’s military infrastructure and prevent them from killing any more people in Donbas. They succeeded completely in little over an hour. Reportedly the Azov Battalion headquarters has been destroyed as well, and leaders have fled to Poland. Too early to tell.
From everything I’ve seen so far, Russia is not occupying Ukraine. They are not invading Ukraine. Striking infrastructure outside of major cities was their goal.
“Russia is not
massing troopsbombinginvadingoccupying Ukraine.”I’ve never denied the first two things when they actually happened. You imply that I’m moving the goalposts but you can go through my history if you want. I’ve stayed consistent.
The Russians literally have boots and bombs on the ground in several major cities including Kiev. In what universe is that not an invasion?
Boots on the ground in Kiev? Are you serious? I have to see this. Let’s see where you’re getting this from.
Looking a little further, they’re trying to get boots on the ground by taking the Kiev airport.
Yeah so you were wrong, weren’t you? But let’s keep going. How do you know they took Kiev airport? Or even what their intentions are?
They’re attacking the airport right now with paratroopers.
Really? Again, let’s see where you are getting this from.
It’s hard to do a lot worse than literally being wrong about an invasion every step of the way in real time.
That’s why @pingveno@lemmy.ml had to dip out of this thread without providing a single piece of evidence for what they’re saying
My deepest apologies. It was nearing midnight and I needed to go to sleep instead of writing the requested essay.
If I accused you of murder or sexual assault, you would full well expect me to provide some proof before making that kind of situation. In a time when world tensions were high, you jumped to conclusions and made them higher by exaggerating what happened. I don’t care if you don’t want to write an essay, that’s fine. But you chose to engage in these false claims in the first place, then dipped.
Remember when Russian backed separatists shot down that airliner? Their defense was also “prove it”, “show me the evidence”, “the plane shot down itself”. Years later, we can see that this is simply a ploy to distract, distort and delay. These disingenuous tactics have become all too transparent.
Because they didn’t respond to dozens of comments from you on a minute by minute basis? Get a grip. Nobody owes you that.
If they didn’t have evidence that I was wrong, they shouldn’t have engaged with me in the first place
Edit: Hastily saying things like there are boots on the ground in Kiev without evidence is dangerous, warmongering talk. I won’t allow it.
Again, you’re delusional if you think anybody owes you minute by minute responses to everything you say. Go for a walk outside.
Minute by minute? It’s been over an hour and I’m still waiting for evidence of boots on the ground in Kiev. And if you look at livestreams of Kiev it looks like a normal day, people going about their business.
Honestly, launching rockets is an attack on nation’s sovereignty and is enough to be deemed an invasion. However, if you need evidence of ground forces:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1496732008881479681
https://mobile.twitter.com/KofmanMichael/status/1496752218296496128
https://mobile.twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1496751495928295428
https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/02/24/7325285/
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1496650245723521024
Ok, I don’t know if you can read well, but, that’s not Kiev. I think the assertion that Russian troops are in Kiev is ridiculous, and that’s the evidence I demanded.
But no, until further verification, I’m staying undecided. I’ve seen too much misinformation tonight debunked by more sober and patient minds. A lot of the videos floating around on twitter are from 2014 or from other events. Or they mischaracterize the content. A boots on the ground invasion would be disastrous for Russia. And since Putin claimed Russia will not occupy Ukraine, it’s incredibly unlikely. Does Putin really think he can occupy Ukraine and convince the world he hasn’t done this? If they actually invaded all of Ukraine, it would be pointless to deny it officially.
Rest assured, that is not what is happening tonight. Everyone needs to calm down, wait for the dust to clear and real investigation to be done, and we will know the truth. Stop spreading lies about troops in Kiev, or Russia attacking Moldova, or other crazy bullshit.
Did I say Kiev? I am mostly responding with sources with boots in the ground.
I said Kiev. In the very post you’re responding to!
In order to prove what? That Ukraine hasn’t been invaded by Russia? That the invasion doesn’t extent into the capital? You sure seem smug about something… but it seems like you’re nit picking in order suck up bandwidth from the truth of the matter.
It’s a general thread regarding an invasion of Ukraine and honestly dude… if you want it to be that specific to help you feel better calling the invasion fake news, seek help. You really need it
But you are not responding to a general thread are you? You are responding to a specific comment in a specific thread of discussion.
“Russia is not
massing troopsbombinginvadingspecifically invading Kiev in particular."https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60503037
Still an evolving situation, but this is clearly a boots on the ground invasion, no two ways about it. I think it’s a stretch to say that Putin wants to hold Ukraine himself for any length of time. That would be difficult and Russia simply doesn’t have the ability to hold hostile territory that long.
BBC 💀
It sounds like my sources were flawed. The airport has been attacked but seemingly only to disable it.
Reports from Kiev say that roads out of the city are clogged with people fleeing.
Again, nobody owes you minute by minute explanations. And yes, you were demanding those. About 20 minutes had passed from your last reply to the parent commenter to your next comment declaring that they ducked out of the thread, as if failing in a duty to respond to you.
Now you’re constantly refreshing the page minute by minute, hour by hour, demanding that your confidently incorrect denials of obvious facts be responded to in detail.
That’s ridiculous and it’s wasting everybody’s time.
I hate being right on this situation :/
Same. I was hoping that it was all some big bluff to extract concessions without going all out.
Russia was not going to wait for the Ukronazi offensive, but decided to attack first. Now its time to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine. No clear confirmation of a Russian ground invasion, the attack was carried out with artillery and air strikes on military targets (and very effectively).
Is this just the Cliffnotes of a Putin speech?