Yes, it’s so interesting that a bunch of Russians didn’t want to be part of Ukraine after the regime outlawed the use of Russian language. You are a very smart person indeed!
You say this while also ignoring the rest of the situation surrounding it! Once again! Interesting!
I can only judge you by the way you behave on this platform, and that doesn’t paint a pretty picture.
So you make shit up… got it.
Please show me where you acknowledge the fact that the west is responsible for creating this situation.
Nah, it’s more fun if you go back and read what I have written. You’re really bad at it so you need the practice :)
However, it’s definitely in the comment section of this post!
You’re literally the one engaging in propaganda here. You keep parroting the NATO narrative like the bot that you are. Literally all your account activity has been doing that.
I mean… I’ve linked you an article from Russian State Media Organisation that literally is spouting ethno-nationalist rhetoric… You’re conveniently ignoring it. You have linked a Katchanovski article which is debunkable by visiting the references and checking to see if they are legitimate and correlating it with the argument that they are made with.
I have not, and you keep calling it that won’t change facts. Continuing to claim that is precisely intellectual dishonesty I’m talking about.
Review this guy’s stuff before linking it https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ivan-Katchanovski
Check the references, check the citations and check if he is peer reviewed and where he publishes. You will get a very clear picture that this guy has literally fabricated resources for his research paper and commits academic dishonesty.
I live in the west you dumb propaganda bot.
Cool! So you going to address the problem with your government then? :)
It’s really cute that you are copying me! Here’s hoping you can copy me by being a better person :)
Funny how you chose to ignore the fact that Crimea is populated by Russians. I guess that doesn’t fit the narrative you’re trying to create.
And yet, it’s part of Ukraine! With a referendum observed by Russia and not Ukraine… interesting.
BRUH, I’ve seen you here bloviating exclusively about Ukraine and nothing else. If you care about the horrors that your government engages in equally as much it’s rather weird that you only talk about Ukraine.
Once again, you do not know me outside of this platform or the actions I do elsewhere. You can’t assert shit here.
The west is directly responsible for creating the situation that led to the war starting with overthrowing the government in Ukraine in 2014. Continuing the narrative that west did nothing wrong isn’t helping anything. The west cynically used Ukraine and then discarded it. That’s what actually happened.
This line of logic is a stretch and suggesting I am continuing a narrative that the west did nothing wrong is also wrong. Good try though!
No, my view point is that the west should find a way to negotiate with Russia instead of pushing us towards a world war. If you can’t understand that then there’s nothing else to say to you.
However, you are assuming that this isn’t happening? What mystical source can you conjure that implies the west has done absolutely nothing to de-escalate? This baseless shit feeds into propaganda.
Once again you’re doing moralizing. The invasion happened, and no amount of grandstanding is going to change that. The question now is how to reduce human suffering and avoid a world war. Anybody who is not utterly insane understands this, but you evidently do not.
Grandstanding isn’t the objective here, you rationalise propaganda, you link propaganda and if you didn’t respond to messages I would have suspected that you were a propaganda bot.
It’s so weird that you actively rationalise the actions of a fascist regime and even dismiss concerns people have had over the actions this regime has done. You get called out because your arguments and sources aren’t lining up here and you have posted prop in this community. To really exemplify this: You have literally linked a conspiracy theory article!
I’ve repeatedly denounced Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and stated that it’s utterly unjustified. I love how you ignore that and keep claiming that I support the invasion. You’re an intellectually dishonest individual.
Congrats, you have denounced an invasion! Not necessarily the point I am making but more the weird objectives you have of the west instead of Russia. It reads like propaganda because you are spouting propaganda.
You’re an intellectually dishonest individual.
Says the person who has literally linked a conspiracy theory articles and tried to pass it off as legitimate source of information.
If you disapprove of the actions of your government and aren’t able to hold it accountable you have no business screeching about Russia. It’s really that simple.
Ah yes, the classic “Well you haven’t fixed your government, you can’t comment on other governments” angle. Before ‘screeching’ as you have said about the west or anything else, fix things with your own government then :)
Seriously that’s gatekeeping shit here.
Once again! Your responses give me a great chuckle :)
Welp this was easy, once again… it has been fun :)
The only ethnic minority is the western Ukraine, which used to be known as Galicia. These are the nationalists the west put in charge.
My phrasing was referring to the ethnic minority of Russian by the Ukrainian census: https://web.archive.org/web/20111217151026/http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/nationality/
Which from the statistics are mostly in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.
Fun fact, the troops were already in Crimea because the legitimate government had a deal with Russia to have them stationed there. When the government was overthrown, Crimea voted to join Russia in a referendum because Crimea is populated by Russians and was part of Russia until the 70s when Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine.
Ah yes, because running a referendum where the options are skewed in favour of the instigator while you have troops present in that country’s land is really cool and democratic.
Here are some sources for you
I have already broken these articles down in previous posts and in the post above (Exception being the Gravel Institute one but that doesn’t really reveal anything new). I even said not to throw Katchanovski articles at me, but here we are. Also, Katchanovski is literally the only article you have there that actively takes a look at EuroMaidan fully and its filled with inaccuracies, a flawed premise and references that don’t even work or are rubbish. It’s not even peer reviewed.
But seriously, I have to call you out on this again, there is little substance here that links them outside of Katchanovski’s article which is not remotely trustworthy.
If westerners had any sense of morality than they’d equally care about a literal genocide NATO is participating in Yemen right now, what NATO is doing in Syria and Somolia, and what Israel i doing in Palestine.
Ah yes, all westerners are, including me, condone the actions of our governments all the time. We definitely do not protest or oppose these organisations either. Once again, you’re just screaming into the void and it’s sad.
Given that you lot have been silent on all these horrors that are far worse than what’s happening in Ukraine, you expose yourselves as being utterly immoral. The fact that it’s only Ukraine that westerners care about clearly shows that it’s never been about human rights or morals.
BRUH, You don’t even know me, seriously. You have invented things about me and westerners so you can throw them at me. I can at least attest in the city I live in, I could probably run into a pro-palestine rally happening in the CBD every second week. It’s rubbish to think that these movements don’t occur or that westerners are uncaring. I could apply similar logic to the Russian and Chinese people but that would be idiotic.
Nice straw man there bud. What I actually said was that the west should be trying to figure out how to work with Russia constructively by recognizing their concerns and try to avoid wars. Instead, you chose to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to fight a proxy war with Russia while bloviating about morals. It’s frankly sickening to watch.
What is or isn’t acceptable in international politics comes down to what countries can get away with doing. That’s the reality we live in.
Dude, you literally said this, I can’t help you if you don’t even know what you say anymore.
Anyway, no one wants a war. The west didn’t start the war, Ukraine has a right to defend itself and countries have the right to support Ukraine’s existence, Ukraine has a right to defend its sovereignty when it is violated by another actor. Ukrainians have a choice to engage in the war itself or flee. Effectively your viewpoint is where you blame the the west for sacrificing Ukrainians because Russia attacked. Just no…
De-escalation absolutely has not been an objective here from the west. Literally everything the west has done since 2014 escalated the conflict until it turned into an open war, and the west continues to escalate today.
Ah yes, because annexation is a reasonable response to a neighbouring nation in crisis when a coup occurs. And we the west clearly didn’t want to cooperate with the Minsk and Minsk 2 negotiations at all. Russia has definitely not been invited in the talks as well…
I finish this with something to effectively staple a point here.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html
Always great when a state owned media outlet are throwing around neo-nazi rhetoric with their victory lap article they accidentally posted.
You literally deserve no respect now. It was fun and I have tried to be nice but… you weirdly support a fascist regime and you’re actually racist.
The response was funny as fuck though, so I have to give you that :)
Have you considered that Ukraine is not a homogeneous blob that you’re making out to be and has had a civil war over this issue for the past 8 years?
Yes I can very clearly see why this situation is a quagmire. However, financing and militarising an ethnic minority of a country on your border makes it incredibly evident you are happy to create an insurgency in that country. To also utilise your troops in that said country, to seize that their land is an act of war (ie Crimea).
- There is evidence prior to 2014 that majority wanted to be part of the EU.
- There is evidence now, even in territories previously against being part of the EU that they are supportive of being part of the EU.
To paraphrase the video you linked, it’s Russia coming in and wanting to wreck the country.
Furthermore, have you considered that the west has been interfering and manipulating Ukrainian politics which culminated in a coup against the democratically elected government in 2014?
Sure! I do agree that there is obviously some backing by the US and EU during EuroMaidan and Orange Revolution. These are typical goals of US foreign policy, however you have to enlighten me outside of Katchanovski’s articles that EuroMaidan was all completely orchestrated by the US/EU, Berkut didn’t fire on protestors, Yanukovych isn’t corrupt and there is no evidence of election meddling
What is or isn’t acceptable in international politics comes down to what countries can get away with doing. That’s the reality we live in.
Sure, we will tell everyone participating in this conversation to turn of their sense of morality. You can kind of fuck off with this if this is your rationale when engaging with people upset about the situation. It’s a failure to empathise and to adequately educate on your behalf.
I think people can comprehend that countries do bastard things, doesn’t mean they have to approve of it or feel indifferent because “That’s just geopol lol!”.
Russia feels that it’s strong enough to challenge the west and they’re doing it. Once again, if you don’t understand the danger to humanity from a conflict between Russia and the west then there’s no point having any further discussion.
What is this point really? People understand the danger here and the country presenting the threat upon the world here. De-escalation has been an objective here but it’s also a case where a country shouldn’t let their sovereignty be violated because of threats. It’s just appeasing Russia then and letting them take what they want.
The reality is that either the west tries to find way to work with Russia constructively or we get closer to a nuclear holocaust. If you don’t understand why that should be avoided at all costs, I really don’t know what else to tell you.
I get a sense that you are blaming the west for Russia acting aggressive. I don’t doubt that they have acted against Russia’s interest and vice-versa but to warrant the use of nuclear weapons is an escalation which is completely irrational. Obviously the west is trying to avoid a situation where Russia will respond with nuclear weapons.
Pretty much the breakdown to your argument is this (as mostly cited from your sources).
- West wants to incorporate Ukraine as part of the west. This challenges Russia’s influence and leadership and therefore to paraphrase the video: “Russia doesn’t want that to happen and will do everything it can to stop that”
And the west is doing that by trying to get Ukraine into NATO and into the EU.
Which… sure, you can infer that the west is strictly doing this for exploitative reasons (the same argument applies with Russia). However have you considered that Ukraine may want to be part of the west?
It’s also kinda bullshit to deny someone’s participation in an organisation like the EU just because they are neighbour of Russia. Some of the above points in your comment can be reduce to: “Don’t include Ukraine or any neighbours of Russia into EU because that will make Russia mad”. However I get why the authors are making these recommendations because it is coming from the angle of US security first and foremost.
What you have also failed to grasp here is how the word fault fits in the lecture. Their point here is to explain that “the west could have done better here” rather than “The west triggered this” because he leverages a lot of blame of particular incidents (violent and undemocratic actions) with Russia but asks us to reflect and consider how we could have handled it differently.
Funnily enough the video appears to have once again, shown the timeline of events which opposes your view. I don’t know how you keep doing this where you constantly quote sources which seem to defeat your own viewpoint and arguments made in the past and now.
With the first quote above and the following quote: “Russia has gone through great lengths to make sure that those pro-russian forces in eastern Ukraine are capable of maintaining a certain amount of independence” when talking the separatists.
This captures the volatility of the situation with Russia and how much they want control over neighboring countries, regardless if that country wants their influence or not. Pretty much I think you have failed to see that… the authors you have quoted here are treating Russia as volatile and expansionist nation. Once again, this is mixed in with their their goal to maintain US security.
The problem with the George Kennan’s argument is that people were being threatened in Europe back in 91-98 where Russia was actively involved in conflicts, it’s revisionist to say “No one was threatening anyone else” and its also a little absurd coming from someone whose job was to ‘contain’ the soviet union and to reduce their influence. There is more at play with Russia than what Kennan infers at the time of his note. Some contributing factors here: You have the hyper-capitalist turn with Yeltsin at the helm, division of territories, loss of power and rise of oligarchs in the new capitalist system.
The authors general consensus is best reduced to: “Russia doesn’t want the west involved in any matters relating to its neighbours”. However, that’s not a decision that Russia gets to make (and the USA shouldn’t get to make that decision either). The authors make it clear that “Russia will get violent if you do get involved”, once again… not okay for Russia to do and it hypocritical to question involvement when they also get involved.
Personally the Ivan Katchanovski article was the biggest red flag that you seem to actively seek out pro-Russian sources to support your world view. It’s fine to do that but balance it out.
Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
No, you are trying to make it seem like that is the case. The tensions were there however the level of escalation that Russia took was unacceptable as with most of their actions prior to this.
Let me reword, if your exports are mostly resources, your economy is fragile. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/03/14/russias-natural-resources-valued-at-60-of-gdp-a64800
The main exports from Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_exports_of_Russia Which is referenced here: https://www.trademap.org/Product_SelCountry_TS.aspx?nvpm=1|643||||TOTAL|||2|1|1|2|2|1|1|1|1|1
How is it dishonest? it relates directly to how Russia has been actively involved with their military and with boots on the ground from 2014 onwards.
The link you provided I am not disagreeing with, however there are recent reports in Kharkiv that outline their presence.
All that you, Gun, Yogthos have posted have been in bad faith and mostly unsubstantiated shit with usual ad-hominem.
You have been fun though :) I am still looking for most of my points (I do have to reply to an economic one) being refuted properly :)
Just going to tell that there are no “boots on the ground”
Yeah… okay, feel free to say more bullshit :) https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/20/russias-anti-selfie-soldier-law-greatest-hits-and-implications/
and Crimea’s invasion has a bit different background behind it
Vague and doesn’t help anything… go on.
It is not like Putin woke up one day and announced “let’s go play boys!”
Sure, that’s not what I said but go on making stuff up, you’re good at it :)
Also, what is this crap about Donetsk and Luhansk having separatists?
Well… are they separatists? As in they want their own statehood?
If they announced their independence after Ukraine cutting off their water supply and all those shenanigans, why does Ukraine have an issue?
Well, I can see a nation taking issue when another state actor has decided to take advantage a ethnic minority and push them into some kind of crusade. Hence the RNU
“Providing military equipment to the separatists” is done by USA and NATO countries throughout, and we can discuss Azov Battalion in national military as well.
Yeah, I’m not going to disagree that this has happened but it shows that Russia didn’t want a peaceful solution that happened to have been the crux of a lot of pro-russian arguments here.
And we can talk about the RNU, come on dude, these guys are neo-nazis as well, for some reason you just want to only apply nazism to Ukraine. Donektsk Republic is Russian imperialist with some serious anti-ukrainian and genocidal elements to it.
Honestly, launching rockets is an attack on nation’s sovereignty and is enough to be deemed an invasion. However, if you need evidence of ground forces:
https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1496732008881479681
https://mobile.twitter.com/KofmanMichael/status/1496752218296496128
https://mobile.twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1496751495928295428
Dude, this screams of an attempt to discredit all information regarding the matter. Sure, headlines like this need to be considered, however, the information regarding the matter is not discredited because “OMG WEST POSTS ABOUT THIS”.
Russia has been the main aggressor now since the past 7 years according to Western fake news
Well lets examine some events here:
- Invasion of Crimea
- Mock Referendum in Crimea (I’m curious how someone could rationalise those questions)
- Sponsoring separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk
- Providing military equipment to the separatists
- Unmarked soldiers
- Downing of MH17
- Rocketing Mariupol
Considering the points above, yes… Russia has been an aggressor for this period of time :)
You could only apply the same logic if you completely ignore reality and history. Here’s what Jacobin, a western publication has to say about the events of 2014, so maybe stop trying to rewrite history here https://jacobinmag.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
There is nothing really in that article that objects to my argument. So, I don’t know what you are on about. Ironically, by providing this argument, you actually proved my point when you said: [citation needed].
So I guess, have you read the article?
Current government in Ukraine is full of extremists an has even integrated Azov battalion, who are unapologetic nazis, into their regular military.
And you have Russian crusaders that are wanting to return Ukraine back to Russia. Ironically, you could just say that Russia is now a hotbed of white supremacists.
There is at least a case with the most recent election that those elements were on the downfall in Ukraine. However, I doubt you want that information to get in the way of your narrative.
Russian funding has been linked to fascist and nationalist parties in other countries: (National Rally, UK Conservative Party, AfD). Sure, I don’t approve of Azov Battaltion and shit like that needs to be removed. However, there is no moral high ground to be achieved here when you when Russia literally does the same thing and is sponsoring RNU in Donbas (which are Russian Neo-Nazis).
but yeah BoTh SiDeS aRe BaD.
Learn to read please, if you are going to try and derive what I mean, do it right.
Bruh, US overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine
This is funny because you can apply the same logic here with Luhansk and Donetsk but you don’t.
There was substantial opposition to Yanukovych prior to the 2010 election and a pattern of corruption established. Post 2010, Party of Regions literally went after and imprisoned the opposition party leader. From this, you should have at least some skepticism of what that Yanukovych’s represents in this case. It can make for a case that is an attempt to seize complete control of a country and erode its democracy. Mixing this with denying Ukrainian’s people’s support of joining the EU, constant cronyism and corruption and then shooting protesters opposing the government… yeah, ain’t great. Remember, Russia supported this guy, so we can somewhat conclude that Russia benefits from having this guy in place.
Of course, this is going to start leading to people in the country feeling like their government is no longer representing them and protests will likely ensue.
funded and trained literal fascists there
Svoboda and Right Sector? Or are you talking about the current government of Ukraine?
Sure, ironically if you typically invade a country like what Russia did, you are going to spur some serious nationalism and embolden those elements. However, Ukrainian people, as of the most recent election are not necessarily fond of those elements as you can by them practically losing almost all representation in their government.
I’m not going to disagree that the US had trained people who are part of the parties previously mentioned and I am not exactly supportive of this as well. However, Russia sending their own military into another country, also training Ukrainians that are supportive of Russia/Russian ethnostate. No one has clean hands in this conflict, but it’s kinda obvious that Russia is the main aggressor here.
I have and you have ignored it, like usual. So… no surprise there!
Which just says how I interact with you, not necessarily what I believe outside of this or what I do outside of this thread. If this is how you derive information then no wonder you are in trouble :)
I’m sorry you suck at reading, if I had known :(
Do they? Please read them buddy! I literally responded to your bullshit with your own resources and you failed to make a decent rebuttal to counter my points.
Come on now, you should be holding them more accountable! I want to see more stuff about your government on Lemmy and the things you disapprove of it! Why are you posting about Russia, Ukraine and China when you should be dedicating your activism to against your government!
So the fact you haven’t rebutted majority of my posts and you mostly cry “STOP REWRITING HISTORY” then go on an irrelevant tangent to not just me but most people responding to you? Well… I guess you’re trying.
I sleep fine sweetie and I can tell you’re hurt because you had a little cry session with your friends in another thread :)