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I have yet to see any evidence that western powers are in any way responsible for the war. If you consider the war is caused by the ukrainian government not respecting the Minsk agreements, then it’s an internal policy matter and i fail to understand how that implicates the USA. Moreover, from all i could see western powers (at least in open/official channels) have been preaching for de-escalation whereas Putin was openly calling/threatening for escalation.
I hate the US and French colonial empires, but come on it’s hard to blame them when another major colonial empire invades a country (which just so happens to be its former colony). In true internationalist spirit, we should be supportive of people struggling for freedom & equality on both sides across continents and borders. Fuck nation states and military organizations, vive la commune!
Yes, U.S. and NATO were “preaching for deescalation” while shipping millions of dollars worth of weapons to Ukraine. All while deploying “instructors” and supporting a planned Ukronazi attack on Donbass republics. Of course Russia wasnt just gonna watch and let that happen.
Russia also offered diplomatic solutions many times (since December, and in fact since 2014). Those were all rejected, and now it seems that the time for diplomacy is over.
Edit: forgot to add, just a few days ago Ukraine threatened to develop nuclear weapons. That was obviously a red line for Russia.
What’s this neologism? Are you not aware nazis are very well integrated in the State apparatus in many nations? It’s not just Ukraine: it’s also Russia, France, Germany… So why paint a single nation as nazis when more or less of all the parties involved in the conflict are varying brand of imperialism and racial/cultural supremacy?
What’s the evidence that there was a wide-scale attack planned? If that was true, it could justify bringing military support to Donbass as an incentive for the central government not to attack, but how could it ever justify invading the rest of Ukraine?!
From this article, the demands formulated by Russia amount to saying eastern european countries can’t have military alliances except with them (neocolonialism, much?). Interviewed russian foreign ministry says:
That’s not a diplomatic solution, that’s extortion/bullying. “Do what i say, or else…” has nothing to do with diplomacy and nothing to do with the political autonomy of specific regions.
Iran did pursue to develop nuclear weapon for decades. Has that ever justified a full-scale military invasion from the USA? Oh yes, the USA fascists and hard-liners from the republicans would have loved that. Just like the various fascists, traditionalists and neo-nazis of Russia who love the flag and the military really love the idea of conquering Ukraine and reforming a Great Russia (like historical nazis liked their Great Germany). I did not think i would ever say this in my entire life, but do you realize you’re spitting propaganda from actual fascists in the name of fighting against nazism?
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/02/25/experts-warned-for-years-that-nato-expansion-would-lead-to-this/
PLEASE. Please read this.
I’ve read it. Some sources in there are interesting, but the material itself is completely disconnected from reality. In the sociopathic game of geopolitics, NATO expansion has certainly destabilized the balance of power and incentivized Russia to assert itself (and its claim on its former colonies). But you cannot compare countries forging military alliances, and a country invading another country… it’s a completely different kind of escalation.
If anything, your article confirms that Putin is a colonialist bully just as much as NATO is in other parts of the world. It’s just russian propaganda and does not account for mischief and imperialist ambitions on the part of Russia. If you want a more nuanced source, i’d recommend checking out Glenn Greewald’s Twitter feed: it does a great job to denounce the hypocrisy of western powers, while at the same time acknowledging that invading a sovereign nation is always wrong, no matter what.
If Putin is a madman colonialist bully to you, NATO has succeeded in brainwashing you. Caitlin is not detached from reality, you are. You are okay with NATO invading Russia and surrounding it with Aegis missile system, but Russia protecting Donbas citizens from Ukraine is madman dictator shit. To you, Zelensky, who has a 25% approval rate and jailed the democratically elected Poroshenko and banning opposition media, is not dictatorship, but Putin is a madman. You have been convinced by NATO and its controlled media.
Greenwald fell off long ago after the Snowden saga. When Ukraine was attacking and killing Donbas citizens for 8 years, where was this resistance and media hullabaloo? Or is it selective Cold War bias going on?
I’m not OK with either. But NATO did not invade Russia and AFAIK is not planning to. There is zero evidence to believe
I have no problems with that. But that’s not what’s happening: there is a full-scale invasion going on threatening the capital of Ukraine, where Putin’s demands go far beyond independence for Donbass.
What the hell are you talking about? I may be missing some details, but Poroshenko’s wikipedia page does not mention incarceration, but mentions losing in the elections to Zelensky. To quote the article:
I’m not saying Zelensky is much better, but you seem to be ardent to defend an actual bourgeois fascist whose slogan is “military, language, faith” and inventing conspiracies around him? I mean if you do have reliable sources contradicting this Wikipedia article, please help improve it.
Yes there’s selective cold war propaganda going on. And you’re fully subscribed to one side of it. I personally am very critical of both sides of the propaganda, and supportive of the civilians and internationalist socialists/communists/anarchists suffering due to political repression on both sides of the border. As much as you dismiss Greenwald, he’s doing a correct journalistic job on this topic: he’s presenting the lies from both sides and supporting the victims (the populations). You’re just a puppet of the Russian Empire. Which side are you on? Are you on the same side as Putin and NATO and other vampires playing the same game of geopolitics? Or are you on the side of the people who struggle against oppression and aim for self-organization at all levels of society?
NATO wants to eat communism for breakfast, Russia for lunch and China for dinner. What makes you think otherwise? Imperialist propaganda since Cold War has been pretty much about this.
Quoting should help here, because Putin’s recent speech tells otherwise.
Correction, not yet arrested, but the whole trope seems to be about just that. https://kyivindependent.com/national/explainer-is-poroshenko-treason-case-justice-or-political-persecution/
One side… that has 0% representation in current media for SOME reason.
Thanks, I got called one by few people, I am used to getting called “wumao” and “Chinese plant” too, so I guess I will take it as a badge of honour for standing for the truth.
Good question. You look to be on the side of Ukraine, that wants to prevent the oppressed people of DPR and LPR to have independence, and you support NATO by omission of argument as well. Your first question mixing Putin and NATO on the same side is a fallacy, and I will assume it is intentional, since you called me “Russian puppet”.
You are a fake leftist. I hope all of you supporting NATO lies learn a lesson of recognising propaganda and learn some morality soon. SWIFT sanctions in place means the struggle will not be too long now.
That’s definitely not true. You are the proof of this. While many national outlet are spewing NATO propaganda, others are spewing Kremlin propaganda. I’m hoping we can have more balanced information on lemmy.ml, that accounts for psyops on both sides of the conflict.
OK let’s dissect Putin’s speech together:
Geopolitical concerns between the two big empires (Russia and NATO), nothing about Ukrainian separatists. Though in this part of the speech, Putin presents separatism (in the Caucasus presumably) as morally wrong and dangerous.
Being slightly informed about Putin’s fight for cis-hetero-patriarchy, this appears to be anti-LGBT propaganda. Nothing to do with ukrainian separatists.
Once again this is about sovereign nations and their choice of military alliances (i.e. not Russia), nothing to do with ukrainian separatists. Special note that Putin explicitly appropriates Ukraine territory (“our historical land”) and in the same sentence acknowledges that his colonial stature fuels “anti-Russia” sentiment.
This is highly debatable. Russia is a major military power and has weapons capable of destroying half of Europe and Asia. In the “delicate balance of terror”, there is no indication that the balance has been broken (despite NATO expansionism, Putin still has one-click “life-or-death” button over much of the world) and Putin is not providing any evidence for Russia to be under risk of military attacks.
Saying “i won’t destroy you if you don’t become friends with my enemy” is not peaceful political means. It’s threats.
Putin talks about a genocide which beyond ordinary (and yes, unfair) State repression does not exist in Ukraine, and never provided any evidence for that. If anything, there is evidence that much of this spectacle was planned in advance (video metadata in official releases). And once again, Putin does not provide any evidence that Russia is in any way threatened.
There is exactly zero evidence for that that i could find. On the contrary, Ukraine used to be a major nuclear power in the times of the USSR and agreed to dismantle its entire arsenal in order to acquire relative peace with both Russia and NATO. This sounds a lot like the Bush administration’s “weapons of mass-destruction” narrative in Iraq back in the early 2000s.
As the military repression (some would say civil war) in muslim States (such as Checheny) and in Caucasus has shown, Russia has been treating separatists and ordinary citizens way worse than the Ukrainian has ever treated the people of Donetsk (at least from what we know publicly so far).
So they don’t plan to occupy the country, yet they are bombing the capital and intend to impose (“not by force” ?!) their laws and judicial systems, as well as fully demilitarize a sovereign nation. Is that not a textbook example of a colonialist invasion?
I’m on the side of the people, against Nation States and borders. I recognize the autonomy of local community and am ready to support people struggling for their independence. I’m not on the side of Ukraine and i’m not on the side of Russia, and i’m certainly not on the side of NATO as i’m anti-France, but i also have to be against Russia on this because they’re the ones who “fired” and keeps on shooting.
On the contrary, it’s the only reasonable analysis. Putin and NATO are two sides of the same dice of colonialist garbage. I stand with the people not with governments, as is a foundational principle of socialism (i strongly recommend some historical socialist/anarchist anti-war propaganda). Overall, i strongly recommend that you listen to the demands and cries of comrades on both sides of the border.
LOL. This is intentional grift. I do not even have a soapbox unlike NATO media which has hundreds of orchestras disseminating lies around the world at this very moment.
You are definitely dishonest, intentional or not. Your whole trope has been denialism of NATO’s involvement and threat against Russia since yesterday, and it is clear what arguments you are using. Everytime it is denialism to cancel out any of Russia’s concerns, while balloon up Ukraine as “the people” who you “stand” for.
Ukraine is not “the people”, their military has Nazis and they have oppressed “the people” of Donbas for 8 years. NATO has gaslighted Ukraine into its own destruction, and Russia has to protect itself from Aegis missile system. You are lying through teeth about “the people” here. Also thanks for calling me a “puppet of the Russian Empire” while being a tool of the NATO empire yourself.
There is nothing reasonable about putting NATO and Putin together, since NATO is a Nazism proponent, while Russia wants to do “denazification” of Ukraine. You are literally playing the Hitler card of calling Nationalist Fascism as National Socialism (Nat-Soc or Nazism). There is no “both sides” in being against Nazism for me, I am not an idiot who does not know what NatFashism did to the world during WW2. You may be an idiot like millions of others supporting Nazism unintentionally, but I will not do it.
Looks like you didn’t even read my post. Or if you did, you have some serious self-criticism to do.
You claim to be antifascist (or rather antinazi but maybe you make a difference here?!) yet you support russian fascism. You claim the ukrainian army is full of nazis (this is true) but carefully ignore that the russian army is also full of nazis. I don’t support (and on the contrary condone) NATO imperialism but you obviously can’t read that since in your narrow worldview someone who criticizes the russian empire necessarily has to vow allegiance to their sworn NATO enemies.
Contrary to you, i do not imply that opposing NATO means supporting Putin. On the contrary, i outlined on many occasions that anti-imperialist thinkers/fighters who oppose NATO are also opposing Putin’s imperialism on Ukraine.
Yes “the people” is one side you can choose. And by “the people” i certainly don’t mean Ukraine as a Nation-State or only the ukrainian people (which are not even a coherent ideological block as we pointed out in regards to separatism). I do mean the common people across all borders, who will be (and are already) the ones suffering every time there is war. War only profits the war industry and the fascist State apparatus, whether the invasion is conducted by NATO or by Russia.
Whoever starts the war/invasion, the peoples of both Ukraine and Russia will suffer heavy losses. You would know that if you were involved in actual anti-imperialist struggles and support to political refugees. The only war that’s ever justifiable is war against “your” nation state, for freedom and equality. Any war in the name of a State against another always plays against the interests of the people, or as the song goes (in french): “Because was is a massacre of people who don’t know one another, for the profit of people who always know each other yet do not massacre each other”.
Putin’s actions, not words, have convinced me. No one has invaded Russia. Russia has invaded Ukraine. You cannot talk fast enough to change the facts.
Do not worry, NATO propaganda is falling apart so fast in real time, with the SWIFT sanctions in place, it is just a matter of time. Probably a few weeks or months till the revelation of Iraq war style propaganda is admitted, it has already begun.
https://nitter.net/RealAlexRubi/status/1497747535783411714
The only thing falling apart is Russia’s economy. This is Putin’s swan song.
To understand what Ukronazi means, look at some pictures of the Azov battalion. Their hero is a Nazi collaborator from the second world war (Bandera). In the near future there will also be more information about the genocide they carried out for the last 8 years.
Plenty of evidence for an attack, from NATO weapon supplies, constant artillery shelling on civilians, to even leaked plans and some failed preliminary attacks.
The problem is that western media doesnt report any of this, and if you believe in Guardian or any similar newspapers, you will remain ignorant of reality. Russia has tried diplomacy for a long time, it was rejected, and now the only language left to speak is the language of violence. No one likes that but it is the reality.
Oh i’m fully aware of the Azov battalion and i’m fully aware of nationalist militias parading down the streets for years (source: i know ukrainian political refugees). But do you really think the Russian army is not literally full of neo-nazis too? Just look at the criminalization of antifascism in Russia (many comrades assassinated or in prison) and the abundant footage of actual nazi bands beating up “random” people in the public space… it’s nothing new but for some reason you’re willing to support an ex-KGB operative (Putin) and his hordes of neo-fascists in the name of fighting against nazis?! What i mean is i don’t support the Ukrainian State because i don’t support any Nation-State (i’m an anarchist), but i do support anti-colonial struggles, and i cannot ignore the asymmetry of this conflict and the colonial dimension of it (Ukraine is a former colony of Russia). And i cannot ignore that due to a unilateral escalation of conflict, millions of civilians are currently suffering.
I know a few people who live in the east of Ukraine (won’t say where specifically). Things have been tense and i can’t say there hasn’t been some forms of political repression on the part of the central ukrainian government, but from what i hear and read (except from russian propaganda) there’s nothing that we could even remotely compare to a genocide going on over there. But, even if that were the case, it could justify a so-called “humanitarian” military intervention in affected areas to ensure regional autonomy from the central government, but how does it justify to annex and bomb an entire country?!
Nation States are trading weapons. What else is new? I mean Russia has also been supplying weapons in this conflict. As much as i despise military activity and weapons trade, i don’t see how “A” gives weapons to “B” justifies “C” invading “B”. As for shelling on civilians, i’d like a source for that: i’m aware of russia/ukraine cross-fire at the border for years and some civilian facilities on ukraine side being affected, but i’m not aware of a “constant” effort from any side to target “civilians” and i don’t think such a thing took place at all.
Source? And once again, how does that justify invasion? If Ukraine planned to invade Donbass region, the Russian government could have answered Donbass’ call for help and sent military protection there. This can never justify an invasion.
Russia’s proposal for “diplomacy” was not a negotiation. It was a list of demands impacting the sovereignty of currently-neutral nations (not aligned with NATO or Russia). I’m personally strongly against both colonial empires, so i’m all in favor of more neutrality, but threatening serious consequences if a third-party nation (which just happens to be your former colony) doesn’t comply with your demands is not diplomacy.
Free Tibet, as well!
It was already freed in 1950
This guy contradicts himself, does he think the US should intervene or shouldn’t? This is rambling rant more than an argument with any point.
Trolling from China : let’s ask OP why Taiwan is doing more for Ukraine than China does.